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Wednesday, November 25, 2015

Thanksgiving

As of late I have seen people claim that the United States is not a Christian nation. Even the president went on record to say in a trip to Turkey that Americans “do not consider ourselves a Christian nation, or a Muslim nation, but rather, a nation of citizens who are, uh, bound by a set of values.” Well that's not how this citizen considers our nation. And what are the set of values that Barack Obama is speaking of if not Christian? And where did the values come from that bind us? I would like to say that the set of values are Christian values. So why does our country want to remove these things from the public places? And why do we want to deny that the values that bind our nation together are Christian? Do we no longer want to be a cohesive nation? Are we to no longer let teachers pray at school with children. Why have we taken God out of anything that is publicly funded? Is this what was intended by the ones who fought so hard to be sure we would have liberty that are a "gift of God" as Jefferson said?

One of the last bastion of Christianity in the public domain is the public acknowledgment by our leaders of Thanksgiving. What is the Thanksgiving holiday and how does it show our Christian heritage and values that bind us together as a nation? lets look at the start and trace the history of our country and the intentions for why it was founded.
So here is an early declaration of the intentions of the people who came here. The first Charter for Virginia 1601: "We, greatly commending, and graciously accepting of, their Desires for the Furtherance of so noble a Work, which may, by the Providence of Almighty God, hereafter tend to the Glory of his Divine Majesty, in propagating of Christian Religion to such People, as yet live in Darkness and miserable Ignorance of the true Knowledge and Worship of God. We do, by these our Letters-Patents, graciously accept of, and agree to; their humble and well intended Desires." So their intention was based on spreading Christian values.
So here we will look at the first declaration of Thanksgiving and it is not the Pilgrims of Massachusetts. On December 4, 1619, thirty-eight English settlers landed by ship at Berkeley (Hundred) in Charles City, Virginia to become Pilgrims in our new world. As stated and required by their charter, Charter Berkeley Hundred, “We ordain that the day of our ships arrival at the place assigned for plantation in the land of Virginia shall be yearly and perpetually kept holy as a day of Thanksgiving to Almighty God.So now we will look at the intent of the Massachusetts Pilgrims that we so often associate with the holiday. The Mayflower Compact: "Having undertaken for the Glory of God, and Advancement of the Christian Faith, a Voyage to plant the first Colony in the northern Parts of Virginia; Do by these Presents, solemnly and mutually, in the Presence of God and one another, covenant and combine ourselves together into a civil Body Politic." So again their intention was to be a people who not just are bound by Christian values but to advance Christian faith.
Then once there they had a celebration to give thanks. The original purpose for the Pilgrims in 1619 and in 1621 was to give thanks to God. Being thankful for a safe voyage, bountiful harvest or surviving a brutally cold winter it was all still giving thanks to God. They saw God in the circumstances. It was not lost on them that by some crazy chance there was an Native American already living there who spoke English and who had been taken as a slave to Europe by white men but somehow was willing to help them. Without his help they would have died. They totally understood that that was a coincidence that was hard to explain without God in the explanation.
So now as these people began to organize a union of groups that have settled the "Americas" what values did they use and hold by and with what intent?
The fundamental orders of Connecticut, under which a provisional government was instituted in 1638-39, commence with this declaration: "Forasmuch as it hath pleased the Almighty God by the wise disposition of his divine prudence so to Order and dispose of things that we the Inhabitants and Residents of Windsor, Hartford, and Wethersfield are now cohabiting and dwelling in and upon the River of Connecticut and the Lands there unto adjoining; And well knowing where a people are gathered together the word of God requires that to maintain the peace and vision of such a people there should be an orderly and decent Government established according to God, to order and dispose of the affairs of the people at all seasons as occasions shall require; do therefore associate and convey ourselves to be as one Public state or Commonwealth, and do, for ourselves and our Successors and such as shall be adjoined to us at any time hereafter, enter into Combination and Confederation together, to maintain and preserve the liberty and purity of the gospel of our Lord Jesus that we now professes, as also the discipline of the Churches, that according to the truth of the said gospel is now practiced amongst us." So they unified into a "public state" to maintain and preserve the liberty and purity of the gospel of their Lord Jesus.
So that is a state but what about the nation as they bonded together?
Samuel Adams wrote this about the rights of colonists in 11-20-1772, "The right to freedom being the gift of God Almighty, it is not in the power of man to alienate this gift." Thomas Jefferson wrote this in his Summary Of Rights in 1774. “The God who gave us life, gave us liberty at the same time.” Alexander Hamilton wrote this in an essay in 1775: The Sacred Rights of mankind are not to be rummaged for among old parchments or musty records. They are written, as with a sunbeam, in the whole volume of human nature, by the Hand of the Divinity itself, and can never be erased or obscured by mortal power.
So the values that Barack Obama says bind us start with these men that obviously believe in a God and that all men have rights that come from God and not from a state. These men then declared our independence from England because these "God given rights" were being violated. And the Declaration of Independence recognizes the presence of Divine in human affairs in these words:
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights... appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions... And for the support of this Declaration, with firm reliance on the Protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes, and our sacred Honor." So the values that bound them (and us) were that there was a such thing as a self evident truth, that there was a Creator or God, and that our rights come from God, and that this God is the Supreme Judge of the world, and that God gives us divine protection if we ban together in these values.
So here is a state constitution from the same time. What is their intention and what are their values that bind them together? The Constitution of Delaware, (1776), which required all officers, besides an oath of allegiance, to make and subscribe the following declaration: "I, do profess faith in God the Father, and in Jesus Christ His only Son, and in the Holy Ghost, one God, blessed for evermore, and I do acknowledge the Holy Scriptures of the Old and New Testament to be given by divine inspiration." Apparently they felt that you are not qualified to be a leader if you don't follow Christ. Here is what John Jay the first Chief Justice of the United States said in 1977: "Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers, and it is the duty, as well as the privilege and the interest, of a Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers." The judicial branch of the new government is telling us we should be a Christian nation.In 1777 the First Continental Congress called the Bible “the great political textbook of the patriots” and appropriated funds to import 20,000 Holy Bibles for the people. That does not look like separation of church and state. It looks like the intention of the founding fathers was to spread the Gospel.
Thomas Jefferson wrote this in his Notes on the State of Virginia 1782: Can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are of the gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath?"
Benjamin Franklin’s Speech to the Constitutional Convention June 28th 1787 "I've lived, Sir, a long time, and the longer I live, the more convincing Proofs I see of this Truth - That God governs in the Affairs of Men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without his Notice, is it probable that an Empire can rise without his Aid? We have been assured, Sir, in the Sacred Writings, that except the Lord build the House they labor in vain who build it. I firmly believe this, - and I also believe that without his concurring Aid, we shall succeed in this political Building no better than the Builders of Babel." So these founding fathers have an intention of inclusion of Christian values for fear of the failure of our nation. That our liberty would not be secure if this were not the case and that our foundation would be weak and fall.
So the Constitution that these men crafted states that it is to “secure the blessings of liberty” that the founders believed are a gift of God and it is signed “in the year of our Lord”
George Washington at the constitutional convention 1787 said "Let us raise a standard to which the wise and the honest can repair. The event is in the hand of God."
George Washington’s first inaugural address April 30th 1789 said this "The propitious smiles of Heaven can never be expected on a nation that disregards the eternal rules of order and right which Heaven itself has ordained." So he believes that is we disregard the rules that heaven has ordained (Christian values)God will not smile on our nation. So our first president decided to establish in our government the tradition of Thanksgiving that was already a part of society.
George Washington’s Thanksgiving proclamation 1789: "Whereas it is the duty of all nations to acknowledge the providence of Almighty God, to obey His will, to be grateful for His benefits, and humbly to implore His protection and favor; and Whereas both Houses of Congress have, by their joint committee, requested me to recommend to the people of the United States a day of public thanksgiving and prayer, to be observed by acknowledging with grateful hearts the many and signal favors of Almighty God, especially by affording them an opportunity peaceably to establish a form of government for their safety and happiness:" "Now, therefore, I do recommend and assign Thursday, the 26th day of November next, to be devoted by the people of these States to the service of that great and glorious Being who is the beneficent author of all the good that was, that is, or that will be; that we may then all unite in rendering unto Him our sincere and humble thanks for His kind care and protection of the people of this country. And also that we may then unite in most humbly offering our prayers and supplications to the great Lord and Ruler of Nations." So an official proclamation by the government to worship a Christian God. Somehow I am not seeing the intention of the founders of this country to separate church and state.Here is George Washington’s Farewell Address 1796 "Of all the dispositions and habits, which lead to political prosperity, Religion and Morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of Patriotism, who should labor to subvert these great pillars of human happiness, these firmest props of the duties of Men and Citizens. And let us with caution indulge the supposition, that morality can be maintained without religion. Whatever may be conceded to the influence of refined education on minds of peculiar structure, reason and experience both forbid us to expect, that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle." So it appears that he is promoting Christian values to keep us a strong nation.
Another founding father James Wilson, a signer of the Constitution and an original Justice on the U.S. Supreme Court said this "Human law must rest its authority ultimately upon the authority of that law which is divine....Far from being rivals or enemies, religion and law are twin sisters, friends, and mutual assistants. Indeed, these two sciences run into each other." Not separation of church and state, but mutual assistants.
John Quincy Adams the 6th President of the United States said this: "The general principles on which the fathers achieved independence were . . . the general principles of Christianity." "Duty is ours; results are God's. The first and almost the only Book deserving of universal attention is the Bible.” “It is no slight testimonial, both to the merit and worth of Christianity, that in all ages since its promulgation the great mass of those who have risen to eminence by their profound wisdom and integrity have recognized and reverenced Jesus of Nazareth as the Son of the living God." "… Posterity — you will never know how much it has cost my generation to preserve your freedom. I hope you will make good use of it." So the president is stating that the principles of our country are Christian, so how could they be separate when it is the essence of what our government is based.
And as we as a people traveled west we continued to be about the same values. The Constitution of Illinois of 1870 stated, "We, the people of the State of Illinois, grateful to Almighty God for the civil, political, and religious liberty which He hath so long permitted us to enjoy, and looking to Him for a blessing upon our endeavors to secure and transmit the same unimpaired to succeeding generations."
The Supreme Court stated this in 1892 more than one hundred years after our county was founded, after sighting 87 precedents. "Our laws and our institutions must necessarily be based upon and embody the teachings of The Redeemer of mankind. It's impossible that it should be otherwise; and in this sense and to this extent our civilization and our institutions are emphatically Christian... This is a religious people. This is historically true. From the discovery of this continent to the present hour, there is a single voice making this affirmation... we find everywhere a clear recognition of the same truth... These, and many other matters which might be noticed, add a volume of unofficial declarations to the mass of organic utterances that this is a Christian nation." The President of the United States of America, Abraham Lincoln said this in 3-30-1863, "Whereas, the Senate of the United States, devoutly recognizing the Supreme Authority and just Government of Almighty God, in all the affairs of men and of nations, has, by a resolution, requested the President to designate and set apart a day for National prayer and humiliation."
"And whereas it is the duty of nations as well as of men, to own their dependence upon the overruling power of God, to confess their sins and transgressions, in humble sorrow, yet with assured hope that genuine repentance will lead to mercy and pardon; and to recognize the sublime truth, announced in the Holy Scriptures and proven by all history, that those nations only are blessed whose God is the Lord.
We have been the recipients of the choicest bounties of Heaven. We have been preserved, these many years, in peace and prosperity. We have grown in numbers, wealth and power, as no other nation has ever grown. But we have forgotten God. We have forgotten the gracious hand which preserved us in peace, and multiplied and enriched and strengthened us; and we have vainly imagined, in the deceitfulness of our hearts, that all these blessings were produced by some superior wisdom and virtue of our own. Intoxicated with unbroken success, we have become too self-sufficient to feel the necessity of redeeming and preserving grace, too proud to pray to the God that made us."
"It behooves us then, to humble ourselves before the offended Power, to confess our national sins, and to pray for clemency and forgiveness."
"Now, therefore, in compliance with the request, and fully concurring in the views of the Senate, I do, by this my proclamation, designate and set apart Thursday, the 30th. day of April, 1863, as a day of national humiliation, fasting and prayer. And I do hereby request all the People to abstain, on that day, from their ordinary secular pursuits, and to unite, at their several places of public worship and their respective homes, in keeping the day holy to the Lord, and devoted to the humble discharge of the religious duties proper to that solemn occasion.
All this being done, in sincerity and truth, let us then rest humbly in the hope authorized by the Divine teachings, that the united cry of the Nation will be heard on high, and answered with blessings, no less than the pardon of our national sins, and the restoration of our now divided and suffering Country, to its former happy condition of unity and peace." So with the blessings of the Senate the government was organizing a day of national prayer. Does not look like separation of church and state. instead it looks like there is still the intention to be a people bound together by Christian values.  So here again is the Thanksgiving holiday and the government mandating it as a Christian value that we as a nation should partake in. The first official national declaration of the Thanksgiving holiday by President Abraham Lincoln on 10-03-1836, "To expect continuance of years with large increase of freedom. No human counsel hath devised nor hath any mortal hand worked out these great things. They are the gracious gifts of the Most High God, who, while dealing with us in anger for our sins, hath nevertheless remembered mercy. It has seemed to me fit and proper that they should be solemnly, reverently and gratefully acknowledged as with one heart and one voice by the whole American People. I do therefore invite my fellow citizens to set apart and observe the last Thursday of November next, as a day of Thanksgiving and Praise to our beneficent Father who dwell in the Heavens. And I recommend to them that while offering up the ascriptions justly due to Him for such singular deliverances and blessings, they do also, with humble penitence for our national perverseness and disobedience, and fervently implore the interposition of the Almighty Hand to heal the wounds of the nation and to restore it as soon as may be consistent with the Divine purposes to the full enjoyment of peace, harmony, tranquility and Union." And it continued on as a part of our Christian heritage that we a Christian nation continued on to today.
1961, 1962 and 1963 Presidential Thanksgiving Proclamations by John F. Kennedy: "More than three centuries ago, after a year of hardship and peril, humbly and reverently set aside a special day upon which to give thanks to God for their preservation and for and for the good harvest from the virgin soil upon which they had labored. Yet by their faith and their toil they had survived the rigors of the harsh New England winter." and this "Over three centuries ago in Plymouth, on Massachusetts Bay, the Pilgrims established the custom of gathering each year to express their gratitude to God."
So who are we this thanksgiving? Are we no longer as Barack Obama said considering ourselves to be a Christian nation? What are the set of values that are going to bind us? Remember that when we take God out of the equation then who do our rights come from? As Thomas Jefferson said, "Can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are of the gift of God?"
Well over three centuries ago in Plymouth, on Massachusetts Bay, the Pilgrims established the custom of gathering each year to express their gratitude to God...I choose to continue to consider myself part of a Christian nation no matter what anyone else says. And I choose to see the fact that we have been blessed as a nation because of the values that have bound us. So this Thanksgiving lets see it for what it is. Lets be a people that celibrate the values that have made us a strong nation and blessed us. Lets eat some turkey but lets give thanks and hounor those that have come before us and their intentions and beliefs that have given us the liberty that we enjoy

37 comments:

  1. What we like to do is give a copy of Washington's Thanksgiving proclamation as a keepsake for the family on Thanksgiving! It's also a good gift for the host or hostess who is doing all the work - as a centerpiece for the holiday, I can think of nothing better! My favorite print of it is the one by Colonial Products:
    http://www.cafepress.com/hotpresseddeals.486429920

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  2. Thanks Tim. And thanks for stopping by.

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  3. . . . the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion . . .
    ~ George Washington Administration, Treaty of Tripoli.....All natural institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian, or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit.
    ~ Thomas Paine".....I know," Jefferson had written, ... "that Gouverneur Morris, who pretended to be in his [George Washington's] secrets & believed himself to be so, has often told me that Genl. Washington believed no more of that system [Christianity] than he himself did.".....I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibit the free exercise thereof, thus building a wall of separation between church and state. Thomas Jefferson .....Washington's religious belief was that of the enlightenment: deism. He practically never used the word "God," preferring the more impersonal word "Providence." How little he visualized Providence in personal form is shown by the fact that he interchangeably applied to that force all three possible pronouns: he, she, and it. ......As President, Washington regularly attended Christian services, and he was friendly in his attitude toward Christian values. However, he repeatedly declined the church's sacraments. Never did he take communion, and when his wife, Martha, did, he waited for her outside the sanctuary.... Even on his deathbed, Washington asked for no ritual, uttered no prayer to Christ, and expressed no wish to be attended by His representative. George Washington's practice of Christianity was limited and superficial because he was not himself a Christian. In the enlightened tradition of his day, he was a devout Deist--just as many of the clergymen who knew him suspected. .......We should begin by setting conscience free. When all men of all religions ... shall enjoy equal liberty, property, and an equal chance for honors and power ... we may expect that improvements will be made in the human character and the state of society. John Adams......"I believe in one God, Creator of the universe.... That the most acceptable service we can render Him is doing good to His other children.... As to Jesus ... I have ... some doubts as to his divinity; though it is a question I do not dogmatize upon, having never studied it, and think it needless to busy myself with it now, when I expect soon an opportunity of knowing the truth with less trouble."[Franklin]......My earlier views of the unsoundness of the Christian scheme of salvation and the human origin of the scriptures, have become clearer and stronger with advancing years and I see no reason for thinking I shall ever change them.
    -- Abraham Lincoln,.......The Bible is not my book nor Christianity my profession.
    -- Abraham Lincoln......Oh, that [his Thanksgiving Message] is some of Seward's nonsense, and it pleases the fools.
    -- Abraham Lincoln

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  4. "Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, imprisoned; yet we have not advanced an inch towards uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half the world fools, and the other half hypocrites. To support roguery and error all over the earth."{Thomas Jefferson}... "Shake off all the fears of servile prejudices, under which weak minds are servilely crouched. Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call on her tribunal for every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear{Thomas Jefferson}..."History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance, of which their political as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purpose."{Thomas Jefferson}..."It is not to be understood that I am with him (Jesus Christ) in all his doctrines. I am a Materialist; he takes the side of Spiritualism, he preaches the efficacy of repentance toward forgiveness of sin; I require a counterpoise of good works to redeem it." {Thomas Jefferson}..."I do not find in orthodox Christianity one redeeming feature."
    {Thomas Jefferson}

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  5. "When a religion is good, I conceive it will support itself; and when it does not support itself so that its professors are obliged to call for the help of the civil power, 'tis a sign, I apprehend, of its being a bad one."[Ben Franklin]... "Lighthouses are more helpful than churches."{Ben Franklin}...Lincoln's first law partner, John T. Stuart, said of him: "He was an avowed and open infidel, and sometimes bordered on atheism. He went further against Christian beliefs and doctrines and principles than any man I have ever heard."....
    "Christianity neither is, nor ever was, a part of the Common Law."{Thomas Jefferson}...
    "We discover in the gospels a groundwork of vulgar ignorance, of things impossible, of superstition, fanaticism and fabrication ." {Thomas Jefferson}

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  6. "I have recently been examining all the known superstitions of the world, and do not find in our particular superstition (Christianity) one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology."{Thomas Jefferson}..."The truth is, that the greatest enemies of the doctrine of Jesus are those, calling themselves the expositors of them, who have perverted them to the structure of a system of fancy absolutely incomprehensible, and without any foundation in his genuine words. And the day will come, when the mystical generation [birth] of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as his father, in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation [birth] of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter." {Thomas Jefferson}..."As I understand the Christian religion, it was, and is, a revelation. But how has it happened that millions of fables, tales, legends, have been blended with both Jewish and Christian revelation that have made them the most bloody religion that ever existed?" {John Adams}..."The divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity. Nowhere in the Gospels do we find a precept for Creeds, Confessions, Oaths, Doctrines, and whole cartloads of other foolish trumpery that we find in Christianity."[John Adams}... "God is an essence that we know nothing of. Until this awful blasphemy is got rid of, there will never be any liberal science in the world."{John Adams}...". . . Thirteen governments [of the original states] thus founded on the natural authority of the people alone, without a pretence of miracle or mystery, and which are destined to spread over the northern part of that whole quarter of the globe, are a great point gained in favor of the rights of mankind."... "This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it." [John Adams]

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  7. "It may not be easy, in every possible case, to trace the line of separation between the rights of religion and the Civil authority with such distinctness as to avoid collisions and doubts on unessential points. The tendency to unsurpastion on one side or the other, or to a corrupting coalition or alliance between them, will be best guarded agst. by an entire abstinence of the Gov't from interfence in any way whatsoever, beyond the necessity of preserving public order, and protecting each sect agst. trespasses on its legal rights by others."
    James Madison, "James Madison on Religious Liberty"....
    "What influence, in fact, have ecclesiastical establishments had on society? In some instances they have been seen to erect a spiritual tyranny on the ruins of the civil authority; on many instances they have been seen upholding the thrones of political tyranny; in no instance have they been the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wish to subvert the public liberty may have found an established clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate it, needs them not."[James Madison]..."Experience witnesseth that ecclesiastical establishments, instead of maintaining the purity and efficacy of religion, have had a contrary operation. During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution."{James Madison}..."Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise."..."Ecclesiastical establishments tend to great ignorance and corruption, all of which facilitate the execution of mischievous projects."... "The purpose of separation of church and state is to keep forever from these shores the ceaseless strife that has soaked the soil of Europe in blood for centuries."{James Madison}

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  8. "The study of theology, as it stands in the Christian churches, is the study of nothing; it is founded on nothing; it rests on no principles; it proceeds by no authority; it has no data; it can demonstrate nothing; and it admits of no conclusion."{Thomas Paine}..."I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish Church, by the Roman Church, by the Greek Church, by the Turkish Church, by the Protestant Church, nor by any Church that I know of. My own mind is my own Church. Each of those churches accuse the other of unbelief; and for my own part, I disbelieve them all."[Thomas paine}... "Take away from Genesis the belief that Moses was the author, on which only the strange belief that it is the word of God has stood, and there remains nothing of Genesis but an anonymous book of stories, fables, and traditionary or invented absurdities, or of downright lies."[Thomas Paine}... "We do not admit the authority of the church with respect to its pretended infallibility, its manufactured miracles, its setting itself up to forgive sins. It was by propagating that belief and supporting it with fire that she kept up her temporal power."[Thomas Paine]... "Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and torturous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness, with which more than half of the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent that we call it the word of a demon than the word of God. It is a history of wickedness that has served to corrupt and brutalize mankind.
    {Thomas Paine}."In the affairs of the world, men are saved, not by faith, but by the lack of it."
    {Ben Franklin}..."I wish it (Christianity) were more productive of good works ... I mean real good works ... not holy-day keeping, sermon-hearing ... or making long prayers, filled with flatteries and compliments despised by wise men, and much less capable of pleasing the Deity."{Ben Franklin}

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  9. Anonymous. Thats a lot of words. But where do you think the laws that keep the peace came from? The ten comandments are on the wall in chambers of the surpeme court as a reminder. These men who founded our country believed our rights came from God and if God was taken out of the picture our rights were in danger. Funny your quotes by Lincoln Here are mine "Without the assistance of the Divine Being who ever attended him, I cannot succeed. With that assistance I cannot fail." And this one, "In regard to this Great Book, I have but to say, it is the best gift God has given to man. All the good the Savior gave to the world was communicated through this book." Or this one, "I pray that our Heavenly Father may assuage the anguish of your bereavement, and leave you only the cherished memory of the loved and lost." or this, "God gives us to see the right." or this "Surely God would not have created such a being as man, with an ability to grasp the infinite, to exist only for a day! No, no, man was made for immortality." or this "Sir, my concern is not whether God is on our side; my greatest concern is to be on God's side, for God is always right." or this one he took right out of the Bible "A house divided against itself cannot stand." And here is a George Washington quote. "It is impossible to rightly govern a nation without God and the Bible." Funny how you said George Washington rarelly used the word God yet in his Thanksgiving declaration he uses Almighty God twice, glorious being once, Great Lord, and refers to His will, His benefits, His protection, and His kind care. And calls God the beneficent author of all the good that was, that is, or that will be. Just because one does not partake in sacrament has no bearing on his belief or salvation my friend. And often people fail to live out in completeness their belief (I fall short every day). Now about the "devout Deist" claim. Many often label Washington, Franklin, Adams, Jefferson, Madison, and Hamilton as deist, however that is inacurate, A deist views God as a trancendent first cause who is not immanent, triune, fully personal, or sovereign over human affairs. All of these founders, however, repeatedly discussed God’s providence and frequently affirmed the value of prayer. Their conviction that God intervened in human affairs and directed history. Only a very few founders could properly be called deists, Thomas Payne and Etahn Allen.
    The truth is the great majority of the founding fathers , Jay, Pinckey, and Charels, Daniel and John Caroll, Boudinit, Hancock, Dickenson, Rush, and many more were devout Christians, as evident in their church attendance, commitment to prayer and Bible reading, belief in God’s direction of earthly affairs, and conduct.

    Despite some of their theological differences, virtually all the founders maintained that morality depended on religion (which for them meant Christianity). They were convinced that their new republic could succeed only if its citizens were virtuous. For both ideological and pragmatic reasons, the founders opposed establishing one denomination as a national church. However, they provided public support of Christianity through various means, including establishing Christian denominations at the state level, passing state laws restricting public office holding to Christians and punishing blasphemy, issuing proclamations of thanksgiving to God and calls for fasting, using federal money to finance missions to Indians, and permitting Christian congregations to use governmental facilities, both at the state and federal level, for their worship services.

    So lets keep it real and factual. OK?

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  10. "When Alexander Hamilton was asked why the U.S. Constitution made no mention of God, he said the country did not require 'foreign aid'; when his mother insisted on a serious reply, he explained, 'We forgot.'"..."As to religion, I hold it to be the indispensable duty of all government to protect all conscientious professors thereof, and I know of no other business which government hath to do therewith."[Thomas Paine]...(Historian Franklin Steiner:) "[W]hen it was proposed to open the Constitutional Convention, over which he [George Washington] presided, with prayer, the motion was lost. Only three or four of the delegates favored it, and it is not recorded that Washington was one of them."...(Church-State scholar Robert Boston:) "The Constitution fashioned in 1787 is a secular document. There is no mention of God, Jesus Christ, or a supreme being anywhere in the document. A minority faction of delegates pressed for some type of recognition of Christianity in the Constitution, but their views were rejected."...President George Washington:

    "[N]o one would be more zealous than myself to establish effectual barriers against the horrors of . . . every species of religious persecution. . . ."

    "The citizens of the United States . . . have the right to applaud themselves for having given to mankind examples of an enlarged and liberal policy worthy of imitation. All possess alike liberty of conscience. . . . [T]he Government of the United States, which gives to bigotry no sanction, to persecution no assistance, requires only that they who live under its protection should demean themselves as good citizens in giving it on all occasions their effectual support."

    "In this enlightened age and in this land of equal liberty it is our boast, that a man’s religious tenets will not forfeit the protection of the laws, nor deprive him of the right of attaining and holding the highest offices that are known in the United States."

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  11. Wow you have been busy. Again you confuse religion with Christianity as so many who detract often do. When Jefferson and Madison are talking about religion I aggree. Religion is not Christian. Jesus was persicuted by the religious. The belief in God and Jesus is not religious it is relational. As I have said before religion is mans way of getting to God. Jesus is God's way of getting to man. Anyway i'm so glad that someone is interested in a discusion. It is better at least have an opinon. So tell me where do you think the "set of values" that our country was founded came from if not Christian?

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  12. Wow again you have been busy. You do know how to cut and paste.

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  13. (Church-State scholar Robert Boston:) "The Constitution fashioned in 1787 is a secular document. There is no mention of God, Jesus Christ, or a supreme being anywhere in the document. Thats funy because it ends "The year of our Lord" Who do you think their Lord is? Could it be that they did mention Jesus? So much for the title scholar

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  14. Why is there is fear of "Christian" values being what we are founded on? Love your neighbor, don't kill, show grace and mercy, love your enemies, don't steal, give to those in need, I know it is pretty scary stuff. Maybe it convicts you that you need to change? So you run from it. Paul said that the Gospel smells like death to the unsaved but is a sweet smell of life to the saved. Something rotten in your life? It smell like death because we need to die to the flesh and don't want to. Being born again means the old man must die. I guess that is the fear. I was once on the other side of this debate.

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  15. "I consider the government of the United States as interdicted by the Constitution from intermeddling with religious institutions. . . . I do not believe it is for the interest of religion to invite the civil magistrate to direct its exercises, its discipline, or its doctrine."

    {Thomas Jefferson}.."The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods, or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg."{Thomas Jefferson}..I am persuaded, you will permit me to observe that the path of true piety is so plain as to require but little political direction. To this consideration we ought to ascribe the absence of any regulation, respecting religion, from the Magna-Charta [Constitution] of our country
    George Washington, 1789, Papers....I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved--the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced![John Adams}...The United States of America have exhibited, perhaps, the first example of governments erected on the simple principles of nature; and if men are now sufficiently enlightened to disabuse themselves of artifice, imposture, hypocrisy, and superstition, they will consider this event as an era in their history. Although the detail of the formation of the American governments is at present little known or regarded either in Europe or in America, it may hereafter become an object of curiosity. It will never be pretended that anypersons employed in that service had interviews with the gods, or were in any degree under the influence of Heaven, more than those at work upon ships or houses, or laboring in merchandise or agriculture; it will forever be acknowledged that these governments were contrived merely by the use of reason and the senses....[John Adams}...The Christian god is a three headed monster, cruel, vengeful, and capricious. If one wishes to know more of this raging, three headed beast-like god, one only needs to look at the caliber of people who say they serve him. They are always of two classes: fools and hypocrites[Thomas Jefferson}...But a short time elapsed after the death of the great reformer of the Jewish religion, before his principles were departed from by those who professed to be his special servants, and perverted into an engine for enslaving mankind, and aggrandizing their oppressors in Church and State.[Thomas Jefferson}...“Religious controversies are always productive of more acrimony and irreconcilable hatreds than those which spring from any other cause. I had hoped that liberal and enlightened thought would have reconciled the Christians so that their [not our?] religious fights would not endanger the peace of Society.” [George Washington}

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  16. Great cut and paste skills. Again, So tell me where do you think the "set of values" that our country was founded came from if not Christian?

    Oh yea and quoting Thomas Paine as a rational thinker? After writing his one great work Common Sense, he went on to write the pamphlet Agrarian Justice (1795), discussing the origins of property, and introduced the concept of a guaranteed minimum income. yea everyone over twenty-one is given a minimum income. Makes sense to me if I wanted the country to fail and I wanted to live off the sweat of others. He was so loved and his ideas were so mainstream for his time that six people attended his funeral.

    All your quotes are not proving that the values used were not christian. It just proves they had a distaste of organized religion and people who had a religious spirit. So did Jesus, so what. As for Adams. Funny how his son said this "The general principles on which the fathers achieved independence were . . . the general principles of Christianity." It was a Christian society. Weather you went to church or not the foundation of morals, ethics, law, and behavior came from this fact. Even those who spoke against it had a foundation of ethics that came from their parents who were CHRISTIANS. Even you Anonymous somewher in you code of conduct or ethics have some residuals of this past.

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  17. AZJ,

    I'm a Christian and have no problem with the historical facts which prove that our nation was founded with religious principles (most of them Christian) as the philosophical foundation of the United States.

    But as your last comment implies, not all these values and teachings are exclusive to Christianity. SO: the real question for me is, Would Jesus want us to insist that we're a "Christian nation" in the sense that no other religion (including Judaism) can claim a share of the truth? Can we as Christians not be OK with the idea that we were founded primarily with Christian principles, but now -- in the spirit of Christ himself! -- we're willing to say to other religions, "Whoever is not against us is for us"?

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  18. My friend Robinbrevard. I am glad that you are able to see the truth that historical facts prove our nation was founded with religious principals. What the problem is in amaerica is that people want to change the foundation not just be tolerant of other faiths. And people want to change or re-write history to suit their agenda. And people want to limit the free expression of all faiths. People are claiming that this country is about freedom from religion not freedom of religion. They have removed prayer from the schools (not just Christian prayer). We are teaching a religion but excluding another when we teach evolution theory as fact instead of the conjecture that it is. It goes on and on.
    I aggree with "whoever is not against us is for us." Problem is there are many who are against us and not for us. On June 28, the United States Supreme Court struck a significant blow against Christian freedom, ruling 5-4 that the University of California-Hastings College of Law was justified in its refusal to recognize as an official student organization the campus chapter of the Christian Legal Society. The group's doctrinal statement is Biblically grounded. The struggle continues between those who seek to expunge religion,Christianity in particular, from the public life of this country and those committed to a Christian foundation. Many people believe the argument that the United States Constitution mandates the separation of church and state. The First Amendment stipulates that "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof." The original intent of this statement simply was to bar having a national state church, not to prohibit Christian influence in our public life. In fact the First Continental Congress appropriated funds to import 20,000 Holy Bibles for the people. Certainly they did not feel the constitution limited or prohibited Christian influence of or by the government. In fact they were using the govenments money to spread the gospel. And these are the ones who just before this formed the contitution. I think they knew what their intentions were.

    So today we have an assult on anything that is christian in the public realm. Funny though Congess and The Supreme Court itself has always opened with prayer. Athe the Supreme Court "God save the United States and this honorable court." Yet that body denies other public bodies the same right and freedom.

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  19. Anonymous. For starters do you have a name? Second fear of organized religion and not picking one to be a state or national one is not the same as relgious belief or exclusion from govenment. These people had an intention that we would be a religious people. A few quotes don't in any way over power the facts of the truth that this nation was founded on the belief that "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights. They believed that there was a such thing as a self evident truth, that there was a Creator or God, and that our rights come from God. This is the foundation of our country. The French decided to start their republe void of such declarations intentionally and stated this because it was evident to them what the foundation of the United States was. Duh. Again I ask you the question that you don't answer. What are the set of values that our nation is based on if not Christian? And where did the values come from that bind us? I would like to say that the set of values are Christian values.

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  20. Let me state this and get this straight. I am talking about founded on Christian beliefs and principles, not a sect or religion. There is a difference. What Jefferson and his buddies were afraid of was a "Church of America" like a Church Of England. Anoynomus started his rant with this "the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion". Dude! right. There is no such thing as "the Christian religion" Again it is founded on Christian beliefs or values as I stated.

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  21. Look "AZ" it's not my rant...those are the words of the united states goverment under the washington administration...if you don't like thier terminology...get a time machine and take it up with them. You like taking liberties with what the founding fathers intended because the reality of the situation doesn't fit your "christian" world view. well...tough.They made in undeniably clear that they intended no sect or group to be favored over another.you don't like this. boo hoo.You started your whole supposition based on the fact President Obama {ooooohhh! scary,socialist,muslim luvin' Obama!} did not equate the United States as a Christian Nation...He was correct in this assessment...you are incorrect.We were not founded as a christian nation and no amount of fundamentalist revisionism on your part will change that fact. I have provided the words of the founders themselves to refute your position. if you want to say that they never said these things...take it up with the Library of Congress.You are wrong..dead wrong and it pisses you off to be called on it...by the very men you claim to bolster your arguement.The founding fathers were by and large Deists NOT Theists as you so clearly have shown yourself to be AGAIN. It's wonderful you have found in your life a belief system that makes you happy...heck..I'm happy for you..but that doesn;t give you the right to re-write history to support that belief system. A place for everything. Faith has it's place..Governence has it's place ...may the twain never mix...EVER.'Give unto Ceaser that which is Ceasers and unto the Lord that which is the Lord's"{How's that for some cut/paste? from an early proponent of separation of church and state..J.C. Himself} here's some more: "Are we to have a censor whose imprimatur shall say what books may be sold, and what we may buy? And who is thus to dogmatize religious opinions for our citizens? Whose foot is to be the measure to which ours are all to be cut or stretched? Is a priest to be our inquisitor, or shall a layman, simple as ourselves, set up his reason as the rule of what we are to read, and what we must disbelieve?"{Thomas Jefferson}..."If we did a good act merely from the love of God and a belief that it is pleasing to Him, whence arises the morality of the Atheist? It is idle to say, as some do, that no such thing exists. We have the same evidence of the fact as of most of those we act on, to wit: their own affirmations, and their reasonings in support of them. I have observed, indeed, generally, that while in Protestant countries the defections from the Platonic Christianity of the priests is to Deism, in Catholic countries they are to Atheism. Diderot, D'Alembert, D'Holbach, Condorcet, are known to have been among the most virtuous of men. Their virtue, then, must have had some other foundation than love of God." {Jefferson}..wow..imagine that...tolerance.

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  22. Anoymous. For starters i'm not "pissed". But aparently my expressing my views on my blog raised some sort of reaction in you. I have asked you now several times to tell me what values if not Christian they used as the moral compass that was needed. Freedom of religion is a christian value. Christ does not force people to follow, God of the Bible gives us free will. What is the first thing often taken away in a dictatorship. The bible. Why? because the notion that mans rights come from God are contrary to the belief that mans rights come from the state. Again and again I have asked the same question. What vales if not Christian do you think the country was founded on? A country not picking a set church style is not the same as not allowing prayer in a public meeting or school. Again it is obvious that what was feared was forced religion. Forcing atheisim on us would probably be included. All these men knew that govenment would fail if not done with a moral compass. Being a free moral agent does not necessarily mean that one will choose to be moral. Freedom does not address the need to maintain order, establish justice, or provide for the general welfare. Nor does freedom provide much protection from the coercive powers of government. Morality, on the other hand, provides a context of responsibility for freedom. Morality even implies a degree of freedom of choice and, to the extent of that freedom, responsibility. Freedom by itself implies a type of existential or subjective
    responsibility but not necessarily any other type of moral acknowledgement. When Jefferson put forth the ideals of our country in the Declaration of Independence, his first assertion, his primary self-evident truth, was that “all men are created equal and that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights" That as Jefferson said was a no brainer. We have a creator and he gives us our rights. This is foundational to our nation. Take it away and as Washington said in his parting shots (not a re-election speech) "Of all the dispositions and habits, which lead to political prosperity, Religion and Morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of Patriotism, who should labor to subvert these great pillars of human happiness, these firmest props of the duties of Men and Citizens. And let us with caution indulge the supposition, that morality can be maintained without religion." Thomas Jefferson wrote that the aim of writing the Declaration of Independence was "to place before mankind the common sense of the subject" and he described it as "an
    expression of the American mind" with its authority resting on the "harmonizing sentiments of the day". The common sense of the subject was (as stated in the Declaration of Independence) that there was a such thing as a self evident truth, that there was a Creator or God, and that our rights come from God, and that this God is the Supreme Judge of the world, and that God gives us divine protection. So what values are these that bind us? What was the prevailing "harmonizing sentemints" of the day? Again what values if not Christian were used? An even better question is what is the prevailing majority of americans using as their moral compass?

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  23. Our country was invented to be a country "under God" and thus protected by God. in 1892 the surpreme court's claimed that America "is a Christian nation" is in "the domain of official action and recognition," not mere "individual acceptance." The Court demonstrated with 87 precedents that our entire system of government was created with a duty to acknowledge the authority of the God of the Christian Bible, and to obey His commandments
    by Christians who acknowledged the authority of God and were committed to obey His commandments
    intended the government they created to acknowledge and obey God. This case was not overruled until 1931, and replaced by subsequent Courts with the idea that the government is "separate" from God, not "under God." This is a new doctrine of "separation of church and state" and it covers way more than churches; it really means the separation of God and Government (this is not what the founders intended). In 1989, the Court declared, "the Constitution mandates that the government remain secular." A ruling as late as 1989 should not be seen as a foundational value. The first Congress, in the "Year of our Lord" 1789, which considered, discussed, and voted on the First Amendment of the United States Constitution hired chaplains within the same week. This is a fact that even the separation of church and state extremists don't deny. Arguing that the framers violated a law which they had just passed, is rediculous futility. If it happened a significant amount of time later, one might make the argument that through the course of time the importance of the amendment waned (as the importance of the Second Amendment seems to be waning today). But alas, it wasn't that way. The chaplains were hired within the same week. it is important because it reveals the original intent of the framers. Had they truly intended to divorce religion completely from government, then certainly wouldn't have bothered to hire chaplains. They could have quite simply put their stamp of approval on separation of church and state extremism once and for all by abstaining from such comingling of religion and government, but they didn't. As Chief Justice Warren Burger observes: "Clearly the men who wrote the First Amendment Religion Clauses did not view paid legislative chaplains and opening prayers as a violation of that Amendment, for the practice of opening sessions with prayer has continued without interruption ever since that early session of Congress."
    Finally, it is important because chaplains, by definition, serve a religious function. These weren't simply janitors or advisors, they were men of God, serving God as they saw fit within the doctrines of their own denominations (all of which were christian based). Their salaries, however, were paid with public monies. So here we have public financing of a spiritual function - hardly something in line with what the church/state mafia preaches today, but that's not surprising. Who my friend is practicing revisionist history? Again the context of Jeffersons quotes you use is why there is no Church or America so to speak as there was a Church of England. Not that we should remove all things spirital from govenment.

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  24. In 1777 the First Continental Congress (who passed the first amendment) called the Bible “the great political textbook of the patriots” and appropriated funds to import 20,000 Holy Bibles for the people. That does not look like separation of religion and govenment. Because that was not their intent and it is clear by the very actions of the ones who wrote the amendment. Just as the before stated action of creating the position of (and paying for with federal money) a Congessional Chaplin

    So, right here, we see that the concept of separation of church and state as thought of by the First Congress was substantially distinct from the demagoguery that we hear today


    Who my friend is practicing revisionist history? Again the context of Jeffersons quotes you use is why there is no Church or America so to speak as there was a Church of England. Not that we should remove all things spirital from govenment. Again what are the principals that defined the nation if not Christian? And if you quote Jefferson again about the govenment not forcing religion on the people you are just not thinking. Again free choice is what Christian faith is based on. But forcing atheisim on the rest of us is not what our country was founded on or the intolerance of christian activities in the public arena. As Jefferson thought, the idea that there was a such thing as a self evident truth, that there was a Creator or God, and that our rights come from God, and that this God is the Supreme Judge of the world, and that God gives us divine protection are no brainers. He wanted to protect people from religious zealots who wanted to put God in a box of their own making and force people to worship in a certain way. He never envisioned he needed to protect the right to worship in public. The problem is that Liberty to worship in a public place has been taken away today. Kids being sent home from school because they wear rosary beads, teachers being fired because they pray with kids, people suing schools because there is a cross on display or the ten comandments. A state being sued because they put crosses up where state highway patrol officers died on the highway, people suing the govenment because a croos is displayed at a veterans memorial. This is what religious persecution looks like. And the very values are now under attack, a school being sued because the words mother and father are used in a text book because that offends people who are gay. It is a slippery slope. So again lets keep it real. OK?

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  25. Oh and Anonymous thanks for expressing you view. What you don't see is that I don't promote forcing a set religion on anyone. I do promote free expression in the public places as traditions. And I'm tired of having to defend these traditions. Holiday tree. . . its a Christmas tree and why does it offend people. Thanksgiving is about giving thanks to God. Get over it! Don't believe thats fine but leave the rest of us alone.

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  26. One more thing Anonymous. I disagreed with sacred President Obama. But what this junk you wrote. President Obama {ooooohhh! scary,socialist,muslim luvin' Obama! as if thats my view. I disagreed often with Bush as well. I do not think Obama is a socialist or "muslim loving". You take great liberties on my blog. You take quotes out of context and changed the debate. You think that words spoken by a few after the action can change the words that were actually writen and voted on by the many. Again the fear of one religious sect taking control is different than the fear and removal of all religious activity in public realm. Christianity is a set of values and beliefs to be followed. Religion is a set of rules about how it is done. You my friend are aguing a different agument than I am. Read the first amendment for your argument and see if it states freedom from religion or freedom of religion. I know what they wrote and their actions in the same week show their intent (weather one of the group disented or not) the majority of the founders found nothing wrong with prayer in public places and public funding of religious activity.

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  27. a belief in a Creator is not a belief in Jesus. That's where your whole arguement is total B.S. You keep saying we were intended to be a nation of "Christian" principles. Untrue.No matter how you want to twist it...how you want to make it seem the intention of our very "Deist" founding fathers was to lay down Christian ideals you are in error.You can SAY those are our common values all you want that does not make it so and the words of the men who put this Country together make that abundantly clear.If you want a theocracy...move to Iran...or Saudi Arabia. I'm sure the Mullahs will keep it very "Real" for you there. as to "original" intent...let's look at what Jefferson said BEFORE He penned the Declaration of Independance..... that our civil rights have no dependance on our religious opinions, any more than our opinions in physics or geometry; ... that the opinions of men are not the object of civil government, nor under its jurisdiction; that to suffer the civil magistrate to intrude his powers into the field of opinion and to restrain the profession or propagation of principles on supposition of their ill tendency is a dangerous falacy [sic], which at once destroys all religious liberty ... ; and finally, that truth is great and will prevail if left to herself; that she is the proper and sufficient antagonist to error, and has nothing to fear from the conflict unless by human interposition disarmed of her natural weapons, free argument and debate; errors ceasing to be dangerous when it is permitted freely to contradict them. We the General Assembly of Virginia do enact that no man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship, place or ministry whatsoever, nor shall be enforced, restrained, molested, or burdened in his body or goods, nor shall otherwise suffer on account of his religious opinions or belief; but that all men shall be free to profess, and by argument to maintain, their opinions in matters of religion, and that the same shall in no wise diminish, enlarge or affect their civil capacities ... (Thomas Jefferson, "Bill for Establishing Religious Freedom in Virginia," 1779;]...or from the same document...Where the preamble [of the Statute of Virginia for Religious Freedom] declares, that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed by inserting the words "Jesus Christ," so that it should read, "A departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion;" the insertion was rejected by a great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mohammedan, the Hindoo and Infidel of every denomination. (Thomas Jefferson,] btw...I'm not an athiest...never said I was

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  28. Again you are confused with the term "diest" Diest can determine that a supreme being created the universe. But the term implies that this supreme being does not intervene in human affairs. In other words no need to pray or he does not give rights, or protection. As I have said before and am tired of saying, these men do not fit this definition.
    Thanks for this quote "that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion." Right! It was their religion by their own admission. Thanks for making that clear. I do not want a theocracy never said I did. Wow where do you get this stuff? Fear motivated I guess. Acknowledgment of a Christian base or foundation and moral code does not equate a theocracy. Huh? Dude, I'm not trying to convert you. It's my blog. It's about me AZ Jones and what interests me. If you don't like it I don't care. Go somewhere else to leach free music off of those so kind to share Start your own blog about what you believe. Make sure you tell me where it is so I can come over and state my opinion under the cove of the name Anonymous. By the way do you come here for the music without thanks or just to use my blog to express you discontent with anything Christian?

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  29. AZ, It is hard to try to speak to someone who has no light in them....
    This anonymous guy lives for these kind of arguments. A simple man who is so overcome by darkness that he has fooled himself. He never did answer your questions, but threw so many stones that he has tired himself out.
    Many of us here know the Truth. I pray for this country, and pray for what it is becoming. Obama is a pinhead and that is what I believe- a double minded man who is unstable in all his ways. It had to happen and what is happening to America must also happen.... BUT, I don't have to take it lying down. The humanistic worldly system is already long at work and having it's way in this country. I thank God that I am an American. People like anonymous are blinded from Truth and God. This country was founded on Godly principals and that is why it has been such a blessed nation. As we move away, and depart from the Lord we are losing our standing and God is dealing with us as in a new way.
    I pray for you AZ and thank you for your superb web site and the fine music and amazing pictures. Keep on keeping on....

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  30. Bruce. Thank you for your kind words towards me. I don't always agree with the president but I won't call him names. I pray for the man who is Anoymous and hope I did not offend him. God forgive me if I have not shown love. I feel people like him have been hurt by someone in their past that wore the name Christian. And that is a sad fact that is so common today. Lets move on to the next thing and try to reach out to those who don't have money to buy food let alone internet service and a computer.

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  31. I'm not tired! Just had a business to go run!Happy Thanksgiving!Not offended in the least and Bruce,I'd LOVE to take you on in battle of wits...unfortunately you appear to be unarmed. AZ..just don't agree with You...don't hate ya..don't dislike ya...just call b.s. when I see it. Thanks for the Prayers!I am a happily married man {to a beautiful Christian woman...have 2 kids..1 in college and 1 in high school...both attend church.I own a bar in Atlanta Georgia and employ 30 people all of whom I love! I have a great life and actually couldn't be happier!Don't worry about me!Again...Happy Thanksgiving! Just because I think you are wrong...doesn't mean I have ill feelings towards You!

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  32. Well I'm pleased you family knows my Lord. I do pray for you to know Him as I do if you don't. If you don't I know it concerns your kids and wife. Anyway. We appear to disagree and I'm not changing my mind and it appears you won't be as well. Let move on. Often the reason people don't become Christians is other Christians. I hope I was not one of those for you. Religious people ruin it. It is about relationship. Christianity is about freedom not bondage to dogma, rules, and judgment by others. There has always been a religious spirt that has alway been a couterfit and enemy of Jesus. And it still exists today. You won't find Jesus in a sect or religion but in quiet time of prayer and searching.

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  33. I'm good...thanks anyway!

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  34. Anonymous spake without thinking and uttered forth anyway did he…… “the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion.”

    Ever hear of the Mayflower Compact?

    "In the name of God, Amen. We, whose names are underwritten, the Loyal Subjects of our dread Sovereign Lord, King James, by the Grace of God, of England, France and Ireland, King, Defender of the Faith, e&. Having undertaken for the Glory of God, and Advancement of the Christian Faith, and the Honour of our King and Country, a voyage to plant the first colony in the northern parts of Virginia; do by these presents, solemnly and mutually in the Presence of God and one of another, covenant and combine ourselves together into a civil Body Politick, for our better Ordering and Preservation, and Furtherance of the Ends aforesaid; And by Virtue hereof to enact, constitute, and frame, such just and equal Laws, Ordinances, Acts, Constitutions and Offices, from time to time, as shall be thought most meet and convenient for the General good of the Colony; unto which we promise all due submission and obedience. In Witness whereof we have hereunto subscribed our names at Cape Cod the eleventh of November, in the Reign of our Sovereign Lord, King James of England, France and Ireland, the eighteenth, and of Scotland the fifty-fourth. Anno Domini, 1620."

    Mayflower Compact – What is it?
    The Mayflower Compact is a written agreement composed by a consensus of the new Settlers arriving at New Plymouth in November of 1620. They had traveled across the ocean on the ship Mayflower which was anchored in what is now Provincetown Harbor near Cape Cod, Massachusetts. The Mayflower Compact was drawn up with fair and equal laws, for the general good of the settlement and with the will of the majority. The Mayflower’s passengers knew that the New World’s earlier settlers failed due to a lack of government. They hashed out the content and eventually composed the Compact for the sake of their own survival.

    All 41 of the adult male members on the Mayflower signed the Compact. Being the first written laws for the new land, the Compact determined authority within the settlement and was the observed as such until 1691. This established that the colony (mostly persecuted Separatists), was to be free of English law. It was devised to set up a government from within themselves and was written by those to be governed.

    "God Bless America"

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  35. All very well said, Barrack Obama is a disgrace to this great country, How could we have elected this clown not once but twice, He continues to apologize to our enemies, releases terrorists and murderers from gitmo so that they can go back on the battlefield to plot destruction against us and plays golf after our citizens are butchered by ISIS pigs, Also the Ebola situation where he allows free flight to the US from these infected countries. When home grown terrorists murder our citizens as in Oklahoma and Fort Hood he refuses to call them acts of terror by muslam extremists , instead he refers to them as acts of workplace violence . There are so many other examples of this idiots incompetence that it would take too long to list them all here. The fact that this man has no Christian values shouldn't surprise anyone. He seems more concerned with appeasing and not offending our enemies than doing what is nesassary to take care of the country that he was elected to represent . A man like this could never have been elected 20 , 30, 40 years ago or beyond . Maybe that speaks to a bigger problem with the nation and the people who vote, thanks again for your very accurate statements, Bill E

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  36. Stunning work-up. Notice too that in "...all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights" that the 'C' in creator is capitalized (denoting an individual person, which God is).
    The main one that the anti-God crowd really loves to pervert is the beginning of the first amendment. It is simple and straightforward. Its sole purpose is to prevent this government from doing here what they were all fleeing from over there.... a government-mandated religion with a king as its "protector".

    It's really not all that difficult to understand, just as long as people don't try to read their own personal religious ideologies into it.
    "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."

    So what's this "separation of church and state" thing? Is this why little Billy can't put a Christian cross sticker on his school lunchbox??

    NO LAW HAS BEEN MADE, PEOPLE.

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